So says the title of the latest leaflet (as of Nov. 2006) pushed through the doors of householders by faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs). How is it that, on the one hand, JWs expect people from other religions to read this leaflet which is calling their religion "false" but on the other hand refuse point blank to read anything critical of the JW religion (it should be mentioned that it is not so much the individual JWs fault as they have been instructed by their organization not to receive the literature of other religions, especially literature critical of the JW religion).It is like they are saying: "I think your religion is false, but don't tell me that mine is in return, or show me literature which may demonstrate it. Read my literature but don't expect me to read yours!" Double standards?
Thoughts anyone?
48 comments:
well as one of jehovah's witnesses i can tell you that when we have a serious message we don't water it down.
there are many examples in the bible where god instructed one of his servants to preach destruction. and in some instances, those in which the people had a good heart condition, they turned around and benefited from such a strong message.
for example in jonah 3:4-10 (NIV):
4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.
6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
"By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."
10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
as far as taking literature from people of other religions, we are taught what most other religions believe. you are more then welcome to try and explain it to us at the door. or even better come to our door as we do to yours.
if you don't want to take literature from us we would be more then happy to explain to you what we believe from the bible personally.
do we have a double standard? i suppose, but shouldn't you if you believe that you have the accurate understanding of the bible.
do you have any questions? i would be happy to explain them.
Hi Brandon,
Firstly, apologies for the delay in getting back to you.
No problem with JWs being direct as long as they admit that they have a double standard, something which I am glad to see that you appear to admit. Thanks for your honesty.
I know you say that you are taught, by the Watchtower, what most other religions believe but do you think that this may be a somewhat biased presentation when you consider that they have already demonised these religions? Did you know as well, for example that the Watchtower Society has misrepresented what Christians believe about the Trinity for over a hundred years (calling it three gods, a being with three heads, etc)? Is it fair to misrepresent what others believe in this way?
A better and more balanced approach would be to go to the primary sources instead, balance them against critical literature and make an informed decision.
Imagine how little inroads you yourself would make, say with a Mormon, if all he kept saying to you was: "I will not accept your literature, as I 'know' my Church is true, so why should I look at anything else?" You know he is wrong in his beliefs but how will he ever know if he is not open minded?
Here is a question I would like to discuss with you:
I know that JWs teach that they believe in the resurrection but, through personal Bible study, I have come to the conclusion that JWs actually reject the resurrection of Jesus and therefore deny Romans 10:9 which states:
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Now I know that no JW will stand for this charge and I am not misrepresenting you, but I can demonstrate to you that JWs do not actually believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected, deny Romans 10:9 and consequently cannot be saved.
I will await a response from you if you want to discuss this further.
Hi Vince,
Im one of Jehovah's witnesses. As far I know with what I learned is that there are nothing I learned that denies Jesus's ressurection. Jesus' ressurection is part of our worship and without believing it, its hard to have faith in Jehovah because that was one of the many promises he gave to mankind.
Jesus' ressurection is very important and it give me hope that I would see my father again when he is ressurected. I dont see how you can think that we're denying it where it is a comfort to those who has lost love ones in death!
Here is where the Jehovah's witness bible (NWT) comes from.
When I first became a Christian in '93, my older mature Christian friends, were studying the origins of the bible. I spent a lot of time myself on this subject, with them. Looking at great classic books such as 'Revision revised' by Dean John Burgon, Edward Hills King James defended, David Otis Fullers 'which bible, etc etc. We found out that there are 2 streams of bibles. To put it simply- Both come from different sources, the one stream is from the manuscripts known as the Textus Receptus stream which progressed from the Erasmus Greek bible, and Tyndale etc and ended with the AV 16ll, the other is the Neutral Text stream. The Neutral Text stream is all modern versions including the NWT (JW bible), NIV, NEB, RSV, Douay Catholic, Good News, NKJV suprisingly, NASV etc etc. We have found that the TR Textus Receptus stream are solid excellent and reliable translations. Without error. We have found that the Neutral Text versions (all modern versions) have deletions and poor use of English language, and dare I say it mistakes. The Neutral text versions started out with the translation work (on the RV) by Wescott and Hort in 1881, these men were closet Catholics and were associated with the occult, 'the ghostly guild' one was a brewery owner. Neither were 'real' Christians. They were also associated with the famous 19th century witch madame Blavatsky. All modern versions come from their translation work. But obviously the KJV does not. The New World Translation gives those two men a mention. If anyone wants any more info I can gladly supply it. Also we can defend the KJV as JW call it a 'Christendom Bible' And make false accusations against King James. I have some great scanned material on modern versions and the KJV compared. Some of the NWT omissions and errors are appauling. JW's themselves say that there bible is not perfect. I believe my bible to be the infallible inspired work of God.
To JonW,
The only difference between those bibles is the wording or the phrase. The new world translation is much simpler grammer easy to understand. And most important of all, it has Jehovah's name. And we know the older bible still has this name. It appears more than 7000 times in the original manuscript. Something that most bible today doesn't have.
And if anyone wants to study the bible using they're own of bible, we would allow it. It's just that our bible is in simpler word.
So far you have had 2 JW's read what you have said and responded. Now you have a third. So we do read what other people have to say in writing. If you read the literature of JW's, you would also see references to other works not published by JW's which can be looked up at libraries. I personaly have other books that I use in reference to my personal Bible studies. (i.e. The Forgotten Trinity by James White; Revelation Unveiled by Tim Lahaye; The Names of God by Nathan Stone to name a few)
I also use more then just the NWT in my Bible studies. I have more then 30 other translations/versions of the Bible that I also cross-reference.
What JW's do not accept and read is the message that is produced by apostates who have left our association. The reason is biblical. (2 John 2:9,10; 2 Tim. 2:16-18)
JW's actually go to the doors of people all over the earth and not only tell them what we have learned from the Bible, but listen to those whom they visit about what they have learned from the Bible. To insist that we have a double standard is being narrow minded.
Hi skittishkitty (if you are still out there),
I don't deny that JWs teach Christ was resurrected, at least on the surface. Let me explan:
WT doctrine teaches that when Jesus died and rose again it wasn't actually His body that rose was it? Rather, they teach that He was raised spiritually, as the archangel Micheal in fact. So, it wasn't actually Jesus Christ that rose, according to JW religion.
This is a very serious error to hold to especially when you consider the Scriptures:
And if Christ [i.e. Jesus Christ, the man, not a spirit angel creature] has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead,... (1 Cor. 15:17-20).
and:
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him [i.e. Jesus Christ, the man, not a spirit angel creature] from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
Hi Jim,
Then why don't JWs receive the literature of other religious people when they go door to door?
Also, would you make it known to other JWs that you had the religious literature of other religions in your library?
Vince said...
Hi Jim,
Then why don't JWs receive the literature of other religious people when they go door to door?
Simply put Vince, I have come to your door to offer you good news. The day you come to my door offering me some I will gladly invite you in for a discussion and review of your information. I care enough about you to risk embarassment and even harm by approaching you personally, because I believe the message Icarry is life saving.
Vince I believe you are misinformed somewhere. No JW would be afraid to let others know what is in their personal library. The status afforded such material is a personal issue and this is what is most important. Even so, it is still a personal issue- no one can read another's thoughts.
Hi Matt,
Please email to let me know where you live then so someone can visit you to share: VSpotlight@aol.com If not myself (depending on where you live) then someone I can link you up with in your area.
It is refreshing to have a JW invite someone to their home interested in doing some alternative study.
Door to door is not the only way of evangelism anyway. Even the biblical data would suggest that the early diciples/apostles where visiting house churches anyway. Even so, door to door evangelism is an option, and some Christians do do it. I have done so a number of times and have knocked the doors of JWs. Only once was I invited in and I had to work very hard to persuade the JW to allow me in. Even with this, it was a one off and they wouldn't have me back. On two other occassions I have had literature screwed up in my face.
Another thing with door to door is do you 'want' to do it or are you doing it because you need to fill a slip in each week to remain on the books as 'active'? Where in the Bible does it say we need to do this, fill a slip in, all before the eyes of men when really our acts of righteousness should be in secret before God anyway?
I would be happy to let someone in if they found my house like I find theirs. Knock knock!
:D
Matt
Why didn't you answer Vinces question about taking literature off others.
They too are offering Good News.
If the message you have is "life-saving" why do you seem so reluctant to discuss it.
Then you finish up with a "come and find me" invitation.
Not sort attitude you would expect from someone with "life-saving good news" to give
JW's put forth the effort to find people every day. No one has ever repeat that ever come to my door with 'good news' except JW's. When anothr group puts forth the same effort JW's have for the reason they are concerned about my well being as JW's have I will gladly talk to them. Don't forget, I found Vince's blog, he did not find mine.
""JW's put forth the effort to find people every day""
Of course you refer to the door-to-door work. Where an individual may spend on aveage 10 hours a month on an ineffective means of finding converts. So when the JW's work my road about once every 3 months or more. Find only about 6 people at home out of about 50 houses thats ok. Just so they can put down an hour on their report slip at the end of the month.
Would you call that making "an effort" to find people?
Think about it.
Over the last 130 approx years JW's have printed and distributed millions of pieces of literature and spent billions of hours of preaching.
Yet you stop anyone in the street and ask what are JW beliefs. They would be baffled, you may get "don't celebrate birhdays or christmas, knock on doors, no blood".
Yet the Watchtower seem to think they are on everyones lips (well thats what they tell their members anyway) and that the clergy are scared of them. The clergy have other things to worry about than the teaching of some cult.
Ita wonder how Christianity managed to spread over the last 2000 years without JW's knocking on doors.
""Don't forget, I found Vince's blog, he did not find mine.""
Does this mean you have a blog also? If so may we have its address?
Answer me this:
"Who is your Mediator with God?"
Did you not follow the automatic link provided? Just click on my name silly.
Christ is our mediator.
The clergy sure do spend a lot of time talking about how bad JW's are for not being worried about us.
""Christ is our mediator.""
Sorry but if you are a JW,
Christ is only Mediator with the "anointed" 144,000.
""The clergy sure do spend a lot of time talking about how bad JW's are for not being worried about us.""
Not as much time as JW's spend telling everyone how bad all other religions are.
In all my years it has been a rare occurence to hear a clergyman mention JW's.
The Wt magazine 4/1 1979 pg 31 says:
The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the “little flock” of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge.
I think that means Jesus is also the mediator for all JW's. Someone has misrepresented our beliefs to you.
If you think the clergy don't spend much time talking bad about JW's just google JW's. If you have rarely heard clergy say anything bad about JW's then why do you have such a poor view of us?
Jesus mediator only for 144,000
Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31 Questions from Readers
• Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?
The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense JESUS IS THE "MEDIATOR" ONLY FOR ANOINTED CHRISTIANS.
The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing for Man's Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New Covenant."
-------------------------
Watchtower 1991 February 15 pp.15-20 "You Were Bought With a Price"
8 Hence, the ransom sacrifice is fundamental to the new covenant, of which Jesus is the Mediator. Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all-this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." (1 Timothy 2:5, 6)Those words especially apply to the 144,000, with whom the new covenant is made.
[…]
11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) CHRIST DOES NOT ACT AS MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT TOWARD THEM, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God's Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God's friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually "be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God."—Romans 8:21
Let me use all caps also so you see the point:
From the article we both have quoted I qoute again:
HOWEVER, BY THEIR ASSOCIATING WITH THE "LITTLE FLOCK"... (the annointed) THEY (JW's not of the annointed) COME UNDER BENEFITS THAT FLOW FROM THAT NEW COVENANT.
Please examine the context and make sure I have not altered the meaning with my "..."
Frome your second quoted article:
THE BENEFIT FROM THIS
COVENANT THROUGH THE WORK OF GOD'S KINGDOM. cHRIST STILL ACTS TOWARD THEM, HOWEVER, AS HIGH PRIEST, tHROUGH WHOM JEHOVAH CAN AND DOES APPLY THE RANSOM TO THE EXTENT OF THEIR BEING DECLARED RIGHTEOUS AS GOD'S FRIENDS.
How can you not see these words which you yourself post?
Those who associate with the "Little flock" have Christ as their mediator as well because they take advantage of the blessings of the covenant. You have been misinformed as to the meaning of these words. I cannot make it any more plain.
Hi Matt,
No disrespect to you but I cannot understand, from the quotes provided by aniron, how you cannot see that the WT are teaching that Christ is the mediator for the 144,000 only. The quotes provided seem clear, especially:
CHRIST DOES NOT ACT AS MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT TOWARD THEM
and
So in this strict Biblical sense JESUS IS THE "MEDIATOR" ONLY FOR ANOINTED CHRISTIANS.
Maybe these are things you need to look into a bit more? Maybe ask the elders in the kingdom hall about their views on this issue or better still, write to the WT themselves and see what their position is at the moment? Just a couple of thoughts.
I appreciate what you say, with reference to the WT article, when you state:
"Those who associate with the "Little flock" have Christ as their mediator as well because they take advantage of the blessings of the covenant. You have been misinformed as to the meaning of these words. I cannot make it any more plain."
However, can't you see that if the great crowd didn't associate with the 144,000 through whom the benefitys are said to come then there would be no benefits? Therefore, they act as mediators do they not?
Matt
Do you not see that what the Watchtower os saying is that unless you associate with a certain group of MEN then you cannot get the benefits Christ provides.
Where in scripture does it say that you have to go through MEN to to approach God.
Ths puts you under the control of MEN and you have to rely on them telling YOU what believe.
Try reading the Bible and seeing what GOD is telling you.
Vince, you are differenciating between Christ mediating the covenant which is for a 'kingdom' and mediating in behalf of sins. Try to see the meaning IN THE WORDS, not that which is already set in your mind.
aniron, aren't you saying that I must be a part of your belief system in order to get the benefits God provides?
Matt
There is only one way to get the benefits of God.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me John 14:6
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household. Acts 16:30,31
The benefits do not come through any church or organisation.
But through a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Something no JW can inderstand as they have to rely on men being their mediator with God.
Matt
Have you read the May 1st 2007 Watchtower "Question from Readers"?
"When does the calling of Christians to a heavenly hope cease?"
"Thus it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends."
One more the Watchtower organisation changes a major teaching because it is no longer working out.
Yet only a few years ago they were still teaching that the 144,000 had been chosen by 1935.
*** w00 1/15 p. 16 par. 11 "Desirable Things" Are Filling Jehovah’s House ***
It seems that by the year 1935, the general ingathering of the anointed was complete.
*** w01 5/15 p. 15 ‘Behold! The Great Crowd!’ ***
Their identifying themselves with the great crowd of other sheep indicated that by 1935 the calling of the 144,000 anointed Christians was virtually complete.
Interesting 2007 article aniron. Didn't know that they had done away with the 1935 belief. I wonder how many JWs have ever questioned where that date was in the Bible anyway?
Now that they have done away with it, I suppose any JW could put themselves fourth now as one of the 144,000? Who else could dispute it or stop them? Even so, I could still imagine that if the average JW felt that they were part of this exclusive number, and going to heaven rather than earth, they would soon receive some serious counselling from the elders!
Even last year 2006 according to the Watchtower report the number partakers at the Memorial increase by 234 on 2005.
Hi Matt, please understand the Society is claiming a role only Christ fulfills.
According to the Society unless one identifies them and associates with God's channel, the Faithful and Discreet Slave (now the Governing Body) one is hopeless.
In this respect, I suppose we could even go as far as to say that, as well as clearly being a false prophet, they are a kind of a "false Christ" as well (Matt. ch. 24).
We have to fill in a slip at the end of each month to be sent to the Bethel in each country so that the Governing Body can see how the worldwide work is expanding. These figures are published in the Watchtower once a year.
Hi Lynn,
Yes but don't you think that this could also be used a breeding a form of self righteousness? It is like the publisher is saying "Look at me. How many good works I have done!" Does not the Bible say that our righteous deeds should be done before our heavenly Father in secret? Also, where in the Bible does it tell us that we need to fill in such records or do a certain amount of time on the doors in order to remain active? Why not witness spontaneously from the heart as God leads?
Lynn
Thats the point isn't it? You "HAVE TO" fill in the report slip each month. There is no freedom in whether you do or not.
Its not a way of seeing how the work is going. That could be judged by other means. Surely its the number of people that become JW's that shows how the work is growing, not by the number of hours done,or books, magazines etc,that are counted.
Also having been in a position of dealing with report slips I know many of them were not accurate.
Many put down more than they do to look good.
Reporting a slip of preached hours to the WT is an honor not a burden. We are proud of spreading the word and we as the preachers like to see numbers in our publications to see how the word is spreading worldwide. True, it is nowhere found in the bible to write a piece of paper, but wouldn't you like to know how the word is expanding and reaching everyone like Jesus said if you were part of this wonderful ministry?
Also, I would like to add as to those that reports false hours to make themselves look good, they have a conscience I am sure they know that Jehovah is looking at them, they will have to answer to him for their dishonesty.
Anyone who thinks that the clergy aren't obsessed with JW's and what we believe and what we do doesn't get out much.
And like Matt said, Christ is Mediator for all of us not just the anointed. I don't see why some are having such a hard time understanding that.
I am a Christian and since I have been visited by the same JW in the last 2 months, I decided to do some research on the JW Beliefs. I went to the WatchTower website and pulled up a list of their beliefs. Some of these beliefs are just unreal! JW believe that earth will never be destroyed or depopulated and they believe that "Kingdom will bring ideal living conditions to earth. How much are JW helping to restore earth when they cut down all those trees to print their literature on and more paper to report their hours of service.
THey also believe that only a little flock of 144,000 will go to heaven and rule with Christ. The book of Revelation does say that all the tribes of Isreal totaling 144,000 would enter into heaven. However, the JW belief stops right there but if you continue to read further into Revelation Chapter 7 it says:
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
I feel really bad for these people (JW). They have been completely brain washed and they have no idea. Of course they are told not to accept other literature outside of their own. That should be a sign to the JW followers that something is being kept from them. The truth is being kept from them and the Bible says that "The Truth Will Set You Free" These people are in bondage and inslaved to this way of thinking. Some of these beliefs absolutely make no sense and in no way line up with the Bible The True WORD OF GOD!!!
I think when a follower of any religion accuses the followers of other religions of having double standards they are getting on dodgy ground! There is nothing more divisive than religion, why is it that religions bicker so much? Keep your own council you lot and be a bit tollerant of each other?
could u plz contact me on cowbagjean@hotmail.co.uk its ure uncle jims grandaughter an we avin a suprise party 4 him an wish 4 u an kevin an ure familys to atend ty x
could u plz contact me on cowbagjean@hotmail.co.uk its ure uncle jims grandaughter an we avin a suprise party 4 him an wish 4 u an kevin an ure familys to atend ty x
Hi to those called especially those chosen here is the Key to the Door John 18:37 ( Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. so i heeded his voice when he said come out of her Revelations 18:4 (And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
I came out of the church and her harlot Daughter churches now i listen to his voice he has also inspired me in many things and ways one a Web site http://homepages.woosh.co.nz/hirat/
and now he has also given me spiritual eyes to see John 6:63 the words that i speak unto you they are Spirit and they are Life so Brothers and Sisters listen to his voice as he said in Revelations He who has a ear let him Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches with that may he Bless you all Brothers and Sisters Hira
Who decides to disfellowship a person and then reinstate them?
Post a Comment